Maria Davis-Pierre is the Founder and CEO of Autism in Black Inc. She is a licensed mental health therapist, coach, speaker, advocate, and author.  She is also the mother of a daughter with Autism. 

Maria educates us on her journey as a black parent and how that has impacted her daughter's evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment. She and I talk about the importance of open communication, understanding cultural differences, as well as how to support black families.

xx, Holly - The Mom/Psychologist Who Gets It

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www.hollyblancmoses.com

Transcript

Holly Blanc Moses 

Welcome to autism, ADHD TV. It is the place to be for parents and professionals. I'm your host, Holly Blanc. Moses, the mom, psychologist who gets it, we dive into all kinds of important information, like behavior, social skills, and learning. Alright, let's get started. Everyone, Maria Davis, Pierre, The founder and CEO of autism and black incorporated is joining us today. I have been following her for a while and absolutely love what she has done to support the community. She is located in West Palm Beach, Florida. And her organization aims to bring awareness to autism and reduce the stigma associated with the diagnosis and the black community. She is again a licensed mental health therapist, but she's also a coach, a speaker, an advocate, and an author who primarily provides support through education and advocacy training. She's also a mother of a daughter on the spectrum. You're a busy woman?

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yes.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Just a little bit.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yes, a little bit. And I also have twins as well. 

Holly Blanc Moses 

Oh, my goodness, I did not even know that. Yes. Okay. And the mother of twins as well. That's amazing. Now, we're going to talk about something pretty important today. And I'm glad that we are really shining a light on this area. And before that, as both moms have children on the spectrum and both therapists, right. I am really interested in your personal journey with your daughter, do you mind sharing that with us?

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Sure, of course. So I was a therapist prior to even getting pregnant with my oldest, who is autistic. So I was working still within the black community, but I was working with what as you know, they been at-risk youth. So I was working with at-risk youth, particularly Black Girls, and that was my focus and then got pregnant with my daughter. And around six months, I started to notice characteristics of autism. And my husband who is a physician. He's an internist. I went to him and I said, I think Malia is autistic. And he said, diagnose your clients, but not my child.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Right. Right. Stay in your lane.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yep. I said, Okay. But at 10 months, she actually started to regress in her speech. So things that she was saying she just stopped saying them. And when I would get her to try to repeat it, it was as if she couldn't do it. I also thought she might have been deaf at that point because loud noises would occur, and her reaction time would be so slow. But after getting a hearing test and knowing she wasn't, then it was like, okay, you know, this is characteristics of autism. So we went to her pediatrician, to start the process of getting her a medical diagnosis. And it proved to be extremely difficult, especially for someone who is a licensed therapist, and who, whose husband is a physician, both educated in the field and knowing our process was was very slow and very hard. The pediatrician didn't want to take the step of going to a diagnosis. She felt she was too young felt because she was a preemie that we should wait. We all know how early intervention matters. And you know, starting early with services can vastly change the trajectory of your child. So I told her, you know, I'm not here for you to give the diagnosis. At this point, I just need to know who I need to go to. Because while I am a therapist, my niche at that time wasn't autism. So there were still things that I wasn't even aware of. So she sent me to early steps, which is the program before Child Find. So before three is early steps after three is child find. And we went there and for those of you who know, you know, you have your speech pathologist there, your developmental pediatrician, your child psychologist, all their OT, PT, and they're all looking at four developmental milestones on your child. And they're like, you know, we do believe she's autistic, but because she's not three, we can't give her the diagnosis. So you need to go and see a pediatric neurologist. And you know that they are like finding a needle in the haystack.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Unfortunately.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yes, so we find one, go there and he has us do these extensive DNA tests that are also extremely expensive, and our insurance didn't cover them. So we were paying 1000s out of pocket for these tests. And because she was so young, she actually had to be put under to get this imaging, these brain scans, and all of these tests done, and we get the test back. And he's like, you know, I do believe she's autistic. But I also want to wait a year and a half. And at this point, I'm just like, no, that's not it's not gonna happen. That's what I'm frustrated with. I'm like, no. So I told him, okay, I'm going to sit in your office every day from the time you open to the time you close until you give me my paperwork for my child with her diagnosis. I will reach you in the morning, we'll have coffee. I'm just gonna sit here. I sat there for a week. And he cuz At first, he didn't take me seriously. I sat there for a week. And then, at the end of that week, he handed me the paperwork, he was like, please leave, and I said, gladly. So I had my paperwork. And I was like, yeah, we have the paperwork, it's going to be easy street now. And it was not. Because then we had to deal with service providers coming into our home and not being culturally responsive, they did not take our culture into consideration when trying to do their interventions. As you know, what we learned in school, you know, people are just trying to apply textbook stuff, to a family that is rich and culture, and things like that matter when you're trying to, to do interventions. And I saw that this was the norm. So I started autism in black to support black parents who have an autistic child because it's so different for us. And what we experience is very different. And when we go online, and we look up services, a lot of times these organizations don't have people that look like me on their website. So it makes you feel as if you don't belong. So I want to start an organization for parents that looked like me, who knew I knew what they were dealing with.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Right. And so you know, not only your personal journey as a black woman, but then going through this experience as a parent. And what does that look like? in that- I mean, of course, this journey isn't easy for anyone. But it sounds like yours was even more complicated.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yes. Yes. Because I think, one having the education that we do, as a person who again, is a licensed therapist, whose husband is a physician, and you go and talk to colleagues, and tell them your concerns, I think Had we been white, they would have listened more and been like, okay, you know, let's do something with this, rather than not take our expertise into consideration when we're talking about our child.

Holly Blanc Moses 

That makes sense, because, in my experience, you don't have that it's not a good idea to dot your i's and cross your T's and find out, is there something we're missing, but usually families don't have to get brain scans in order to have a diagnosis for their child.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Mm-hmm.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Wow, that's very rare. In my experience.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

it was the neurologist all of his testing and the DNA testing that he was doing. Were four things that we would have known by her age, if she had this particular diagnosis. So it was just seeming like and then for you all to agree, but just not give the diagnosis and say, you know, let's see if she grows out of it, or wait another year and a half and see if something changes. That's, you know, like, you're at this point is, you're holding up services for her.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Right. And like you said, early intervention is absolutely key. Mm-hmm. And you really push through tremendous barriers. As you said, most parents don't have to sit in that waiting room for a week - from the time they open to the time they close.  I have never even heard of that before.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yeah, yeah. And I don't even know what compelled me to do that. But I think it worked. It is at that point, I was just frustrated. I was frustrated as a professional and I was frustrated as a parent who was just trying to make sure my child was going to get the services that she needed. And I was like we're coming up against roadblocks and you just want me to wait a year and a half and do nothing when we both know that in that A year and a half, a lot can go on and you're making her miss out on services that can help her.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Oh, my goodness. So you then you got the diagnosis finally? And then trying to get services after that?

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yes. And it wasn't it was the cultural responsiveness of the services that didn't work. So coming into our home and trying to just apply interventions without thinking, you know, what is the cultural background of this family? And how do these interventions fit within this family? And then when they don't work, saying that, oh, the family is just resistant, not knowing that there's a culture behind why these interventions aren't working, or you're looking at it through a lens that sees, you know, cultural traditions or things that we're doing in our home, as issues as things to mark her off with, you know, I had was listening to a colleague speak on the experience she had with an evaluator where her son was repeating song lyrics. And that is something that, you know, in the black community, you do use, you hear something, something triggers your mind, you're like, Oh, this is a song lyric. And you'll just start talking in a song lyric, me and my family talk song lyric, we talk in movie, movie quotes as well. And they were dinging her son as having a What was she? What does she call it? deviant, deviant language, because of him repeating quotes, not thinking that this was a cultural thing. And these are types of things that I'm speaking about when I'm saying evaluators and professionals don't take culture into consideration.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Well, I'm glad you're bringing that up. And I'm so thankful. And I can see why you've seen that gap. And why you're stepping in that gap to how can we educate people, because you know, as a licensed therapist, it's in our ethics, great, it's in there. And then also, you know, we only have, we haven't our ethics, which is great. Well, we only have the small. And this goes for training programs all over the place, I would say the majority of them don't highlight this as much as they need to. And it's sort of one of those things, those checkboxes that you go down, you know, in your training and graduate school, but it really doesn't have as much weight as it needs to have. And like you said perfectly. If you had if you have your own experience that you're bringing to the table, but you're not culturally aware, and you're not keeping the communication open with the family, you wouldn't know that you were doing anything, you know that you shouldn't be doing things. And you would assume as you said, you would assume Oh, there, maybe the parent isn't consistently implementing this. And that's why we're not seeing progress. We're really there's so much more than that. So what would you say is you are professional? What advice would you give to a provider? Yes, you had a class in school once? Or not so long ago, but probably not even a whole class? And then, on top of that, how do you keep on with your education? How do you get information from the community? How do you communicate with the families, and really asking those questions up front? What do you need? What does this look like for you? Do these visits work within your family? So what advice do you have for those professionals who want to get better and more understanding and want to support families in a better way?

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Well, as you said, we only take one class, usually, in our training, and usually, that class is not even in-depth enough to really cover, you know, culturally responsiveness, as I like to call it because I don't believe anybody can be competent in culture. I'm a black woman, and I will never be competent in all things black women, because we're not monolithic, and we're different. So you know, knowing that your training is ongoing, as long as you are a professional and working with families, your training is ongoing. So just like you make sure you get your CEUs to keep your license. Part of that training needs to be in cultural responsiveness in the families that you're working with. And having good training, any good culturally responsive training, you will be uncomfortable, because you're going to be digging deep into things that go against what you've known all your life. And if you find out that you are doing harm by doing some things that is going to make you uncomfortable, but it's with It's what you do with that discomfort that matters, right? Are you going to take that discomfort and say, I'm not going to listen to this and go back to my safety zone, are you going to stretch yourself out of that comfort zone, and dismantle the systems that are in place that are oppressing black people, especially so we know that the mental health system, there are so many oppressive, systematic racism going on within it. And that's just the truth of it. So to know that a lot of what we have learned does not really benefit black people, people of color, you have to change what you're doing. You have to go into the family's homes, and not be afraid to approach the subject in question, really talking to my white colleagues out here, because sometimes you may be uncomfortable talking about culture or talking about things that are going on. But those things are going to help you better serve the family. Because that family doesn't have the ability, they don't have the what do I want to privilege to say we can't think about these things, because it's a part of their daily lives. So you need to go in there seeking authentic knowledge coming from a place of wanting to know, how can I best serve you? What are things that I should know about you culturally, are culturally within your home, because every home is different, and apply that to your treatment?

Holly Blanc Moses 

I love that. And so really, as you said, it may not be comfortable sometimes, you know, depending on other people's experience is, well, we don't want to offend you know, a person comes in again, have any kind of different race, different background, we don't want to offend this person and ask them, but it's, it's not about that. It's about figuring out what they need, and how do they need it? Because really, how do you best support someone if you don't understand? And, and I love that you said that is ask. That's the only way. And like you also said one person doesn't represent everyone. So every family is different. And maybe what is, you know, a strong value for that one family may not be a strong value for another. And how you would approach someone in that family may not be the same as another. So what it would look like is, again, getting uncomfortable with that is uncomfortable. And saying that all I have is my individual experience. I can't put my experience on you. So how do I learn about you to be able to get how do I take my expertise and make it work for you? And again, support your child and your family. And you know, I have a lot of like you said a lot of white colleagues that you're speaking to you. What I found is there isn't a lot of diversity in this area of supports. And so I think it really speaks to how important this is like you have got to understand and you've got to ask those questions. And you know, a black family you're working with being open, like anytime you're comfortable with letting me know that if something doesn't look right to you or doesn't feel right, or I could be doing in a different way, please let me know. So that communication, that door is always open.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Most definitely. And knowing that we did get in this profession to help and we know that you want to be the most helpful and that you're going in with the best of intentions, we hope, but also understanding that sometimes we don't know. Right? We learn our textbook, but sometimes when we're in real-world experience, those textbooks don't teach you how to deal with things. So it's about coming from that place of Let me ask. Yes, we are professionals. And we know our textbook, and we know our clinical settings. But they are also the expert in their homes. And understanding that for the black community, there is a long history of things that are going to come up in your clinical settings, because there's mistrust within the health system just because of how we've been treated. And especially if you're white, and you're a social worker. And even if you're not a social worker, because you know, though called mental health therapist or social worker, that means something to them, because for social workers, it means you're going to be taken away my kid if I say the wrong thing, so I don't know how I can trust you or I can tell you everything because I don't know what you're going to do with that information. So knowing that there is so much, so many layers to having you in their home and what that means for them. So there's a lot going on with them. There's stuff going on with you. So it comes to letting that guard down and saying, Hey, I'm just here to help, and I need to know how to best help you.

Holly Blanc Moses 

You know, I'm not sure where to start first, because that you touched on like four really important things in one breath. So I'm gonna, I was like, trying to keep a count of all the things that I wanted to ask you, that was so good. So when you're thinking about first, you talked about the textbook and what you learned in school, and I love that you brought that up, because I don't know about you but I knew everything. Mm-hmm. A long time ago when I knew nothing. Right. So I think especially for those who are sort of new to this field, and they've done everything, or they really haven't, but I was there too. And you were there, too. And so keeping that open mind keeping that curiosity keeping that idea that I always want to be learning. Right. That's so important. And also, as you said, the other, the next very important thing you said, was understanding that the parents know, yes, you have that license. And yes, you have that training. And that's amazing of what you're bringing to the table. But parents know their child better than anyone with 100 degrees, it doesn't matter how many degrees you have, they know their child best. They know all about them. They've been with them for their whole life. Yep, they are the best person, the best resource to have and in an ask questions, because they know they know what works, they know, the best way to approach their child they know to maybe ask them in a different way that makes more sense for them. So really saying this parent is the ultimate resource in their child and how to support them, no matter what their color is, you need to bring that up, be asking the questions. And you also, again, all the important things you said in one breath is I'm trying to keep track. The third thing is understanding that when you're getting information, it's coming from if that person may have had experience or cultural experience that not trusting those professionals, because again, why would you? Why would you trust someone who you haven't had a great track work record? Trusting before? Of course, you would be concerned? Of course, you would maybe hold back? I mean, that just makes sense. So you know, asking those questions, but again, I think keeping that door open, and reminding, like, please, please tell me, you know that you know your child best. I'm here to learn from you. I think that type of approach could really bring a lot of communication and collaboration.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Most definitely. And, and knowing that, I'll give you an example of how we as professionals, sometimes don't listen to the parents we're working with, I had a parent who came to me and she was saying, you know, she had an experience with a therapist, that that wasn't great. Because the therapist was saying, oh, we're going to use beads, to in our session today. And the parent said, my child likes to take things and eat them. And I don't think this is a good thing. You know, let's try something else. And the therapist, like know what, we have to do it this way because this is how the child is going to learn. And the therapist put four beats on the table. And then the next thing you know, there were only two beats on the table. Oh. And the parents said, wasn't there four beats and the therapist was looking like, Yeah, what happened and it's while they're having this conversation, the child is picking up another bead to try to put in their mouth. And now the parent has to be on poop watch to make sure that these beads are coming out. When had you just listened to the experience of the parent knowing that my child likes to grab things and eat them? And this is probably not a safe thing for us to do. We wouldn't have been in that situation. Something as simple as that. You know, we come in with our expertise and we're like, no, this is how we're supposed to do it. No. Sometimes parents know their children and know that they're not sometimes all the time. parents know their children know what's going to occur. So take, take that and listen to it.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Yes. Okay, this is so good. So we've talked about so many different important topics already. So to summarize, what would you say, in your opinion, as a therapist, as a black woman, as a mom of a child on the spectrum? What would you say that you want both other professionals to know, we'll go professionals first, and then we're going to talk about parents. So your perspective, your advice to professionals.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

So my advice to professionals is that one, we don't know everything, we do have to come from a place of learning, at times, especially when culture comes into play, and to listen to seek that authentic knowledge. And in the, you know, when we get niche down and talk about autism, we miss out a lot about autism in school. I know as a licensed mental health therapist, and who went through a master's in mental health and a PhD, and almost done in family therapy, we didn't have a class, I sat down and said, autism, and this and this, and this, and this, we didn't have that. Everything that I've learned, I've had to go and learn on my own accord. So sometimes we do have to go above and beyond what we learned in school, to be able to better help families. So you know, sometimes they're like, you know, I'm just going to take my clinical knowledge that I learned in school and be okay with that, no, sometimes you have to extend beyond that, to be able to know what we're working with. So keep that in mind that you're going to constantly be investing in yourself to be able to help the families that you're working with.

Holly Blanc Moses 

I love that. And I'm glad that you brought that up too. Because when you serve autistic children, you really have to understand that population. And before I would recommend before working with anyone having significant training, and again, continuing your education, because that's incredibly important. So what would you say to those parents who are listening?

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Know that you are an expert, even if you're not a clinical expert, a health care professional, you are the expert in your child. And, you know, that comes with advocating in advocating hard for our children, because sometimes these experts don't want to listen to us. So knowing that, okay, it's okay for me to fire people on my team. And to get somebody who is going to be a team player. Sometimes, especially in the black community, we feel uncomfortable with telling those in leadership positions, which would be healthcare professionals, that you know, you're wrong. But sometimes they are wrong. And it's okay to say that because we're talking about your child here. And sometimes it takes saying, I can't have you on the team anymore. And I need to go find somebody who's going to be a team player and be on the same page for the betterment of my child. And that is okay.

Holly Blanc Moses 

I love that so much. Okay. So I know that a lot of professionals and parents are going to want to reach out to you. So how do they do that?

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Well, we do have autism and black conference coming up. So if you're a professional parent, a teacher, this is the conference for everybody who wants to learn more about working with black families. So you can go to autisminblack.org slash conference and grab your ticket. The dates are April 1 through the fourth of 2021. So we're excited about that. And it's virtual. And you get all of the recordings. So don't feel you need to be live for everyone, you will get the recordings. And then you can always reach me on my website, autisminblack.org. I'm active on Instagram and my handle is autism in black. And I'm also on Facebook at autism in blk and my email is [email protected].

Holly Blanc Moses 

Okay, well you get ready Maria. Oh God, you love that. I'm so excited about your conference.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Thank you. I'm excited to you know, this has been a lot. We have some amazing speakers as well. So I'm very excited about the amazing speakers, the experts that we have, so it's gonna be a good fun-filled four days.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Oh, I love that. Okay, now when that conference gets closer, we'll have to make sure that people know in my groups Okay, well, I'll help you get the information out there. That's fantastic. Okay, thank you again, Maria, for joining us today. This has been incredibly helpful.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Sometimes I get into talking and very passionate about this.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Oh, I love it. I love it and I think that you know that's the best is when you are just so passionate about what you do and that comes across. So, so good. Well, I hope you join me again sometime.

Maria Davis-Pierre 

Yes, you know, anytime, just let me know.

Holly Blanc Moses 

Thanks so much, you take care. Bye-bye. Thank you for joining me today. Don't forget to click that subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes. If you liked this episode, please share it with someone it may just be what they need to watch today. If you're a parent, I'd love if you came on over and joined our Facebook group, autism ADHD group for parents. If you're a therapist or educator, come on over to our group does have ADHD group for therapists and educators you're going to find those links right down there in the notes. Thanks so much and I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

Disclaimer 

All content provided is protected under applicable copyright, patent trademark, and other proprietary rights. All content is provided for informational and educational purposes only. No content is intended to be a substitute for professional medical or psychological diagnosis advice or treatment information provided does not create an agreement for service between Holly Blanc Moses, Crossvine Clinical Group, the interviewee Holly Blanc, Moses LLC, and the recipient. Consult your physician regarding the applicability of any opinions or recommendations with respect to your symptoms or medical condition or the symptoms or medical condition of your family member children or adults who show signs of dangerous behavior toward themselves or others should be placed immediately under the care of a qualified professional.